And keep up the good work, you are really a star in my book, being eclipsed only by the stale bot which is the real mvp 
Haha sorry for my questionable humor 
You give me hope.
4 Likes
I understand there’s an option to get paid help if needed. But, let me highlight some issues.
I hope you agree that being opensource and community developed, ERPNext comes with a lot of bugs. Depending upon the extent to which someone explores, bugs might be more common (just making assumption here).
Also, since ERPNext is not limited to one industry, it is more likely that there are alot of issues and topics that need to be addressed but ERPNext has not. { I am not criticizing but just making a statement. } Under these circumstances, as a user, when I observe some deficit in features, I might opt to seek for paid help. But, please take in mind that these situations might arise every now and then and always seeking paid help might not be what most of the users are looking for. As a consumer, if I have to keep on paying for developing what I need, I might abandon ERPNext and find another service where paying once is enough.
If we start justifying every question by “You can always find paid help.” the whole concept of community and free and open source might not be convincing. We as a community must understand that not all problems need experts. And most people here are not experts but can and want to contribute. Besides, almost all users need help and advice at some point.
Something looking silly to one person might be a very strong bottleneck to another. That’s where community kicks in and helps. If we start saying “you can pay someone to help you” every now and then, I am sorry but it feels more suffocating. I understand software is free, service is not. And I am not asking people to leave what they are doing to type in a long script just to help customize some form for one user. What I am asking is, experts at least should be willing to guide them to some resource so that they can help themselves. If they can’t help themselves, they will definitely find paid service.
2 Likes
I am a full-stack software developer and certified cloud computing professional with specialty certificates in Relational and NoSQL databases, so I find it faster and quicker to develop and deploy corporate software using cloud providers like AWS, Google Cloud, and Alibaba Cloud, using React, TypeScript, GraphQL for the frontend and API, and MongoDB or PostgreSQL for the database.
For those who do not know how to do software development, ERPNext is a good thing to have. The ERPNext team is heroic in offering free software and they are always looking for areas of improvement for this system.
There are a few shaky areas such as the use of mutable primary keys where primary keys double as official document numbers, and the implementation of synchronous process (because of python) for potential long-run operations results to webpage timeouts.
But over-all, ERPNext is a solid software.
3 Likes
I agree that ERPNext comes with bugs, like any software, but it’s probably not due to its open source nature. If anything, it has less bugs because it’s open source and we can immediately fix the bugs we find ourselves.
Not sure if this exists anywhere. If it does, it probably won’t include support and Bugfixes.
I agree it’s helpful, maybe even necessary, to have this forum. Frappe, as well as other service providers, already do sponsor expert’s time to provide help on this forum. One reason being that it’s good marketing. The extent to which any company wants to do this is their business decision.
Exactly. This applies to ERPNext as well as to any other ERP.
3 Likes
You have a very wrong concept of open source/free and community.
The advantage is that if you don’t like something or it doesn’t work, you can modify or fix it yourself, if you can’t, you can pay for it. And the latter is not a disadvantage, it is an advantage!
If I want to modify SAP or fix a bug, I can’t!
I also find it hard to understand, and I hope your returns are the same, that you question the community when you have incredible answers (that you should pay for) like these:
My only questioning instead was always how you give so much relevance to questions from users who didn’t even search in google or search forum(let not talk the way they write sometimes), and have dozens of answers, when the same as always that we are in the forum have many threads without any answer.
1- There’s an overall expectation that newcomer developers coming here should be already “experts of 10 years in erpnext” and expected contribute instead of complaining; well fact is, not all of us developers coming here can nor have the time to be contributors for a such big open source project, consumer developers should be treated as potential customers.
2- Errors…unexplainable errors in bench commands…for the simplest things like attempting to upgrade from one major version to another v12 to v13, I followed the same exact steps here ERPNext v12 to v13 migration issue - #8 by Fadil_Siddique and still encountered a problem in bench update complaining that some frappe.utils module is missing…sigh… and that was on a clean OFFICIAL virtualbox v12 image so you can’t blame me of installing frappe wrong. And btw, why the upgrade steps are not in the official documentations and I have to rely on random , sometimes even conflicting, forum posts? And why there’s no official v13 vm? I wish there was a deb installer/upgrader instead, seriously, version upgrading shouldn’t be so difficult and costing more half of day.
3- A lot of changes from v12 and v13 and mismatches in documentations, it seems the documentations talk about v12 all the time about things that don’t seem to exist anymore in v13?? For example: I have created a custom external link in v12 which takes the user to an external app, this was a customer request - How to add a custom link to Desk? - #4 by bahaou someone kind enough pointed me how to do it; after upgrading to v13 I tried to replicate the same solution but oh… that desktop.py, and .the “Places” category no longer seems to be existing in v13; even tho the documentation “for v13” talks about it?
Take a look for example at this:
It shows “Version 13” above, it talks about something that doesn’t seem to exist in v13 tho; even the screenshots are of v12, not v13. I am going to be brutally honest here, If I was a decision maker in erpnext, I would tell the core developers “Guys and lads, STOP! take a pause from v14…take a break, and to work instead on updating the documentations instead of the latest stable version (which is v13, which seems had been annouced in 2020/21?)”; a product without a good matching documentation will become useless with time. I know this is an open source project, so I am not sure how the team structure is tho, but just saying. Don’t rush in doing more versions, perfect what you already have instead! Why are you rushing into more major versions?
I have been on erpnext since less than a month and 90% of the time is being spent on googling errors here and there on this forum. This isn’t normal.
1 Like
I’m interested in Frappe exactly because I’m looking for an alternative to implementing CRUD API&UI for the gazillionth time. Sure I could do it myself, but I want to work smarter.
1 Like
Do not ever make this mistake…
I am on ecommerce business, i know erpnext since ver10
nothing is working properly… there are “functions”, there are so called modules, but none of them are user friendly, none of them are properly working… look at the example of woocommerce integration its been 5 years and still there is no properly working module. it says there is amazon integration, i had such high hope, but no, it requires amazon developer account to use, ( and amazon no longer gives mws access, they have changed their api methods, so yes its another useless module for no-developer people )
developers are only focused on implementing features, in the end everything is full of bugs and/or useless menus … example, entire project management module… begin to end… it doesnt look like a proper project/task management tool… yes its full of functions, but no, cant be used…
i still have hope, if one day developers stops filling it with features and cleans bugs, focuses on usability, this can be the next thing after wordpress… but today, its not ready for production…
4 Likes
Frappe enables you to do CRUD UI very quickly. The downside is that finding information on how to do it could take too much time. I know this because I have used Frappe as my own stress reliever and personal trainer in patience… Hahaha… I do NOT use Frappe and ERPNext in production because I am more confident in my own React TypeScript/ GraphQL / TypeORM / PostgreSQL / MongoDB / Kubernetes technology stack. Another personal downside for me is I am much slower in UI mode of code development in Frappe (as well as component based Outsystems and Embarcadero Delphi). I am faster doing copy-paste text code on Visual Studio Code.
That said, I admire the effort of the Frappe and ERPNext in working on and sharing.
I understand the concept of open source and free software (I may not be an expert but I am familiar to the concept.) I also understand that we wouldnot be able to fix bugs in SAP but we can in ERPNext and that’s the greatest power. My words didnot mean the community should write me a code to solve my problem as in my question (that you quoted). I never wanted someone to do all tedious work for free. What I meant by :
is that, if someone is stuck at writing a small custom script/fetch a data from another doctype or other trival matters, the community should be active to solve these issues. I never meant everything should be free.
Have you reported any bugs on GitHub? Also, related to MWS API, as per amazon’s official documentation on their site the legacy API is still supported
The thing that’s been most surprising to me in this thread is the number of people who seem to be both (1) struggling with the learning curve of the framework (or even just Python/sysadmining), and (2) deploying ERPNext to production for clients. Having both of those things be true at the same time is so obviously a recipe for disaster.
I think there are a lot of people who want the sophistication of an ERP but the ease of use of consumer software. I don’t blame them for wanting that. It’s a good thing to want, and maybe someday someone will be able to build it. In the meantime, for my organization’s purposes, Frappe is far ahead of anything else we’ve found in terms of stability, flexibility, cost effectiveness, and ease of use. I can’t think of anything else that even comes close.
12 Likes
I am using ErpNext for 11 years always as a paid service and I am very satisfied.
95% of the topics on this list is from self-implementers.
The only reason to abandon ErpNext is when such service would stop, or become too expensive.
7 Likes
I agree that Frappe is an amazing concept and technology stack. To do full-stack web development, you must know front-end, API / ORM, and database backend technologies which can years to fully master. Frappe allows the web developer to quickly spin up fully functional websites, webpages, and web forms - within minutes.
2 Likes
- @mcd.steven I agree this would be great…
- …but I also agree with Peter: it is extremely unlikely this will ever happen.
@SamSam
I understand your points and frustration. In many cases, I strongly share your concerns…
…however. If the maintainers wanted to address these topics? They would have. So clearly, those tasks are either a lower priority for them. Or they’re not interested in tackling them.
Championing these ideas on the forums has rarely led to change. The reality is there are 4 real choices:
- Wait patiently (or not) until various fixes arrive. Which may (or may not), actually ever happen.
- Create the fixes ourselves, if we’re capable.
- Pay someone else to write the fixes, if we can afford to.
- Switch to another product.
While ERPNext is Open Source, it’s most-certainly not equal opportunity or equal accessibility. Tech-savvy people with the Time and Skills to learn have a strong advantage. People with Budgets to spend on development also have a great advantage. Everyone else is “stuck”, to a great extent. They might have wonderful suggestions and ideas. But gradually discover that no one is willing to listen + take action.
I agree. I think many people come here, expecting to find precisely that. I know I did, at first.
- The ease of use + modern look & feel.
- The deep and mature functionality found in older, more traditional ERPs.
- Simple to install and deploy.
- Relatively easy to modify, without already being an experienced, full stack developer.
- Collaborative and empowered open source community, who have a good relationship and influence with the maintainers.
We have the first bullet point.
The rest…not so much, to varying degrees.
4 Likes
I worked on SAP for more than 20 years, dedicated my spare time on Frappe/ERPNext more than 5 years now. I tried my best to promote it locally in China, till now there is little progress made. I love Frappe/ERPNext as always, I regularly check (Learn) and answer questions(Contribute) I am interested in this forum.
9 Likes
I see things very differently, and I think that different perspective is a big part of why Frappe has been such a great fit for my organization. In my first post here, I said that nearly all bad experiences come from a misunderstanding of what ERPNext is (and isn’t). I stand by that, so at risk of being a bit self-indulgent I’ll share a bit of background that might help people decide if ERPNext is actually what they’re looking for.
(Long text ahead!)
I work at an academic cooperative. We are perpetually tight on cash but have a great network of very dedicated volunteers. A few of us manage an ERPNext instance on behalf of the organization, and it’s done amazing things to support our experiments with transparency and distributed decision making. (Incidentally, it’s been very cool seeing Rushabh’s blog posts about similar experiments at Frappe Inc. We didn’t know anything about the company behind ERPNext coming in, and I’d still say it was a great product if it had come from a more traditional company, but the philosophy certainly makes the project feel more kindred to our values.)
On needing to be an experienced, full-stack developer: I just don’t get this. I hear it said all the time, but it’s so contrary to my own experiences. I mean, I’m a college professor…in a very “soft” branch of the social sciences, no less. I did a bit of web design a million years ago in college (back when jQuery was cutting edge), and I have a decent grasp on core CS concepts from work I’ve done in data analysis (mostly in a very specialized programming language with no application to modern frameworks). Beyond that, I’m a total amateur. When I look at pull requests by people like revant_one or rmeyer, I barely understand what’s happening. The first python code I ever looked at was ERPNext’s. Even with that minimal foundation, I feel like I’m able to do pretty much anything I can imagine. Frappe has a great architecture of hooks and customizations accessible from the client-side, which makes meaningful development a very rapid process.
On being less mature than the “traditional” ERPs: I’m sure this is true. But, I think it’s important to understand the trade-offs. Another organization I work with has a very expensive SAP install. They ran into a show-stopper bug/limitation related to multicurrency invoicing, and getting it fixed ended up costing them about $35,000. At my organization, meanwhile, we wanted to add multi-currency support to the POS. I had it working in about 8 hours of my own (amateur) development time. If I had known what I was doing, it would have been half that.
I’ll echo @mcd.steven here to emphasize that Frappe has always been “framework first”, which sometimes comes at the expense of individual doctypes but makes custom development so much more accessible. We’ve probably had to do more customization/fixing with ERPNext than we would have needed to do with one of the “old-guard” ERPs, but with those old-guard systems the barriers to customization are much, much higher. That’s the structural trade-off, and as an organization we’re very happy with the balance.
On being difficult to install and deploy: Having watched this forum for several years, I have developed a strong opinion on this. I see zero reason why anyone, especially newcomers, should be installing ERPNext manually. In 99% of cases, docker or frappe.cloud is the correct answer.
On planning and relationships with the community: This I also feel strongly about. I understand why some people want a roadmap, complete with formal processes for incorporating feedback from diverse stakeholders. Frappe has a very different ethos. I find their approach dynamic and effective. That said, there are certainly arguments for other, more centralized styles of governance.
But, it’s a fine, fine line between “offering feedback” and “having other people do what I want”. Ideas are cheap; work is hard. I’ve never seen an open-source project at this scale where the maintainers are more actively engaged with the userbase. At my organization, we also use Moodle and Drupal a fair bit (though we’re shifting much of that over to Frappe now). Both of those projects have very strong planning processes, but getting a seat at the table means committing hundreds or thousands of hours a year in developer time.
That’s the blunt reality: I think there’s a profound misunderstanding on these forums of who “the ERPNext community” is. It certainly doesn’t include me or my organization, at least not more than superficially. It’s definitely not this forum. Open source belongs to the builders, and most of us are here to benefit from everything they choose to share. There’s nothing wrong with that. I don’t think that Frappe contributes much back to nginx, nodejs, mariadb, or any of the other open-source packages it depends on. The value those packages offer is beautifully public. Likewise here.
But, work belongs to the people who do it (or, at the very least, the people who pay for it to be done). I’m not aware of a single open-source project anywhere that works any other way. If we want to talk about how empowered or influential the community is, it’s a question we’d have to ask the very small number of people outside of Frappe Inc. who devote significant time to building.
17 Likes
it would have to be the e-commerce for me. no guest checkout and such.
1 Like
This is a really long and interesting thread. Thanks everyone for sharing the feedback. Some comments:
- My key takeaway is that it seems people want better user experience (UX).
- I don’t think there are any major bugs post v13 (we know this because we support more than a thousand installations) but some settings are clunky and things do break specially when people customize things the wrong way.
- Migrations are always tricky and we cannot foresee every scenario specially while migrating old data, if you have non trivial data, its best you engage an expert.
- Scalability is also something you have to manage. If you have high volume of transactions it is always better to have a staging table where you can dump your raw transactions and then post (daily) summary transactions in Core ERPNext. This will have to be scripted by experts because every scenario / data model is going to be unique.
- UX is also something that is taking priority in the Frappe devs. Now we have stable code owners for most of the core modules (this wasn’t always the case) and they have to manage their support too. But this won’t be fixed overnight - expect at least a year or more for consumer class UX.
- We would love to have feedback on bugs, UX etc, but I don’t think its fair to expect Frappe team or any contributor to deliver on some of your feedback. This kind of behavior (expectation of free labour) is not the right spirit in an open source community. Remember this is the “commons”. If you can’t help, at least don’t dump your frustration on people who are contributing!
27 Likes
I find this thread valuable too. While it’s always easy to find project’s PR hype, and (in case of open-source projects) its bugs, but usually it’s hard to find insightful comments from long-time users if you don’t know any in person.
I’m particularly grateful for constructive criticism coming from users with good reputation on the forum, like @peterg or @brian_pond. Their feedback is really something to think about, when deciding if we should commit to Frappe and/or ERPNext and if so, what can we expect from it.
I’ll probably come back to ask more detailed questions on Frappe
And probably answer some as well. 
Thanks again.
5 Likes